Episode 29: Driving a Medical Revolution

Hey listeners, welcome to SphereCast, a podcast all about technology, technology advice, technology inspiration, and how real entrepreneurs have used technology to build their businesses from the ground up. If you're wondering how technology can support your business goals, rest assured our guests have been there and done that.

The past 18 months have been a time of significant medical and scientific breakthroughs, and it's been easy to lose sight of this during the madness of 2020 and '21. But consider this: in the span of a calendar year, a vaccine was created to help take the sting out of a global pandemic. And now consider this: the same vaccine was built upon revolutionary technology never used before, mRNA. And now that technology is running through hundreds of millions of people's veins across the world.

Well, there's another low-key medical revolution happening that very few know about, but many will soon: virtual humans built by data.

Hey, it's Luke here for another week of SphereCast, and this week Xenia and I interview Mariano Vazquez, Co-Founder and Chief Technology Officer at ELEM Biotech. ELEM Biotech uses patient data to build virtual humans, replicating human cells, tissues, and organs and all their functions. Medical professionals can then run predictive modeling and simulation against these avatars to display the effects of various diseases and to forecast the effectiveness of treatments. ELEM's earliest work has centered around virtually replicating the human cardiovascular system.

It's not a stretch to claim that ELEM Biotech is revolutionizing medicine. Its world-changing charter seems like something straight out of a science fiction movie. But it's all true, and the ability to run experiments against the real data-driven virtual humans is going to change the medical game and save some lives along the way.

On the podcast, Mariano deep-dives on his product and product architecture, details the benefits of this incredible technology, and discusses lessons learned from the beginning of his company to now. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Mariano Vazquez.

Hi, everyone. Xenia's here with SphereCast, and today our guest is Mariano Vazquez. Hi, Mariano. Thank you for joining us.

Hello. Thank you, Xenia.

I would love to start with a with an icebreaker. Could you share with us something interesting about yourself that most people don't know?

Yes. Well, I don't know if it is that that interesting, but from Well, you know, when I when I talk in English, I have this accent of an of a foreigner. English is not my mother tongue, but it is my mother tongue, but it is difficult for you to know from my accent that I'm not from Spain. I'm actually I'm living in Spain, living in Barcelona, but I'm from Argentina.

And it's a, well, it's a very far away country from from Spain. We are very close to We are very close to each other in many, many aspects. One of the aspects is is football. So, we are all football fans. And being from Argentina and being a football lover and Barcelona supporter, being here during all these years in which Messi was playing for Barcelona, it was it is it's been really great. Really great.

That's very interesting. I I I could have never guessed that Argentinian connection, but yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's very interesting. So, have are you have you been a Barcelona fan growing up, or was it when Messi came to Barcelona?

No, it was Now, well, I am I am living living in Barcelona since it it was two two two stages, because I did my PhD here and then I moved to moved to other parts of Spain and and I was living for 3 years in France, but then I went back to Barcelona. So, if you if you put together these two these two stages, it is almost 20 years here in Barcelona. So, yeah, that being here for so long or a bit less a bit less than 20 years. So, being here for so long just made me a a Barça supporter.

And what is interesting is that when I speak Spanish, it is, even after all these years here, is um it's instantly. The Spaniards instantly say, "Ah, you are from Argentina." Our accent is so strong.

Amazing. Amazing. Okay. Thanks for sharing that. I love Barcelona, by the way. I visited Barcelona in 2019, before COVID, in in September. I really enjoyed. I found a fish and chips place in Barcelona, very nice one. It's off the main street. Yeah, very I really enjoyed the architecture and everything there, so.

Yes, yes. And it is Yes, what it is very nice here is that it is a, well, it is a very dense city, you see? It's not large, but it is very compact. And it is plenty of people, but it's very it's of it's of a human size. I go everywhere. Well, not myself, plenty of people go everywhere by bicycle, everywhere. So, even during the just for not just for commuting, but also for just going out, and and in in the night going to the cinema or wherever you go going to a restaurant, wherever you go. So, it is a very It's a very nice place to live. It is not just a beautiful touristic spot, but a nice place to to live, indeed.

Yeah. Good facilities and is is to move around, and walk anywhere, and, you know, you can you If you're If you're a walker, I think you can walk the whole Barcelona, absolutely. In a day, yeah, yeah. We did that. We did that as well.

Yes, yes, absolutely. My wife, for instance, she never, well, she is she does not use a bicycle and she never stepped on the metro or a bus, just walking all the time. It's It's a nice, especially if you if you live kind of at the at the center point of the city, like us, it's it's very it's very convenient, indeed.

Yeah, definitely.

I'd like to start with the most recent venture. Mariano, would you, in your own words, what is ELEM Biotech, and how did you co-found this company?

ELEM Biotech is a it's a company in which we develop virtual humans to test medical therapies. So, these virtual humans are to they are to predict. It is not analyzing data using machine learning, it's the other way around. It's predicting by modeling and simulation of a virtual scenario of a human how a therapy would work.

The the company is a spin-off from the Barcelona Supercomputing Center, which is a research center with a very large computer. It is relatively famous in the because the the computer is in a chapel. It's very it's it's very nice to to see it indeed, and it's very scenographic.

And so, I was hired by this center in 2005. And after, well, so the technology is relatively Well, it's it's it's been around for 15, more than 15 years. But in 2018, well, we we some years before we started to collaborating with our collaborators just kind of push us to create this company, because they wanted to see how this all this technology can become a product, because it would be easier for them to use it, not just as as a consultancy, but just they want to use the the technology. And then we create the company, and here we are.

From what I'm hearing, are we going to be able to predict the treatment and actually virtually treat the diseases?

Yes. The The idea is that this virtual human is like an avatar of you, of the patient. So, what we can do is we can we can generate, at this moment, we cannot generate, well, you can we can generate an avatar of you with a certain degree of of accuracy, let's say, which and this degree of accuracy is progressing is is getting better and better. This depends not only in our models, but also in the in the in the data that we have from you.

Now, the what we can do now is to to create a cohort of virtual humans. So, avatars that are close to you, as many as you as we want. So, it is like you have kind of brothers and sisters 1,000, and what we can create in a scenario which is a a multiple scenario in which we can test the different treatments and options of treatments with some variations of you.

We focus right now in cardiovascular, but we've been doing and we are doing things on a on other fields, but, well, you know, when you create a startup, typically, investors says, you have to focus in something. Yes. We are focusing in in cardiovascular.

I see. So, that's the first problem you decided to solve, and and yeah. So, so I mean, ELEM has been in operation since 2018. I mean, the there's much larger history to it. You As you said, it's been the technology's been there for 15 years. So, where where are we today with the the actual technology piece? Are are you serving some customers already, or are you doing any POCs anywhere in the world?

No. Yes, yes. When we started in 2018, we started with some customers at the at the takeoff tarmac. So, but there were not not as a product, but as a service service providers. So, in the in these years, we've been looking for investors, but also at the same time, we've been developing the technology to transform this in a product. So, we had customers that were we already have customers. These customers are mostly yet on the still on the services side.

But we have an MVP, and we are getting close to the moment in in which we're going to have a to have a customer really using using the product in a in a sustained way. So, it's a, but you know, the the problems that we are solving are so complex, we will always have kind of an initial consultancy stage. It's like you are a pacemaker company come to us and say, "Well, look, I I would like to study this." So, we can say, "Okay, let's do some kind of pilot study as a start, so we both can understand our our problems together. And once this is done, we can adapt the product to your to your needs."

Of course, there can be other in the as time passes, there will be this the use of the direct use of the product will will be increased, of course. But we think that in this initial stages, this would be the typical situation.

I see. Interesting. Interesting. I I do want to follow this up in a, let's say, technological way. So, could you tell us about a little bit about the product architecture? I believe there's a lot of data, so I shouldn't say how are you architecting it, but tell us more about product architecture, and then we can follow that up. Yeah.

Yes, yes. Yes, when we we like to describe this as a as an engine and a car. So, we've been working for so many years in developing the the the engine. But if you want to take a ride and go somewhere and visit places, I cannot give you the engine, I need to give you a car. So, the mission of the company is to create to develop the car. So, what is the car? The engine is the simulation, the modeling and simulation engine in which we can run the we can simulate a beating heart.

And the car is there is a what we call a biomedical interface, which is a graphically user interface, which is which has plenty of complexity from the medical point of view, but can be but must be stripped of the all the computational burden.

Then there is a backend, and this backend is the this is deployed in the cloud. So, this deployment of all the the car, let's say, in in the cloud is the the backend. So, to a server where all the data is is gathered, instances a a dispatcher that start the different instances of the in the cloud that we need, there how you, well, something to recollect the results, gather them, something to analyze the the results, and some and finally, something which connects backend and front end to that that works as an to activate the backend, but also to receive the data and display to the customer.

And finally, there is another important part of the product, which is the virtual population generator. It's the is is what we what we how all the algorithms and and pieces of software that that we can use to create, as I said, this kind of family or this cohort of avatars, changing some of the parameters. This is more or less the architecture.

There are multiple services and they talk to each other and and, you know, data is is sitting on the cloud, and then you have the backend which is sort of as many different Absolutely. And the backend, yes, absolutely. The backend is the how you orchestrate all all this, with also account, accounting capabilities and security, login, credentials, things like that, yeah.

Yes.

I I do have a follow-up question on this. So while you were doing the POC, was there ever a temptation that, because, you know, in in pharma or med tech, the data is is very Handling data is is is very critical is is a critical part of the equation. So was there a temptation that, okay, let's do the POC on, you know, bare metal, or let's, you know, do something on-premise before we go cloud, because going on cloud is going to incur a certain expense, which you may not be ready for?

Absolutely. Yes. Yes, yes, absolutely. The fact is that this orchestrator or backend must be must be as flexible as possible in order to, if we need some part or the or the full system to be deployed on premises, it can be done. And, in fact, the the our code is very is very portable. When we created our code back in 2005, that was one of our own main from the very beginning, from scratch, it it was one of our main concerns: to make the code portable.

So, the code is really portable. It can it can run in in even in a telephone, so it can run in different architectures, mostly HPC architectures like, well, a supercomputing center, but also an an HPC HPC instances in the cloud. But yes, as you as you mentioned, good point is that, again, we are very concerned, always, we've been very concerned about portability, flexibility, and modularity.

I see.

So, the the these three things in in Well, and I would say a fourth one, efficiency. With these four things in mind, but especially with the first three for these cases, for this thing that we are talking about, with this, we can we are in a position to deploy the different parts of the of the platform in in in different on premises, or on cloud, on a supercomputing center. Yes.

Interesting. Very interesting. How big is your team right now? And and how has the team grown over the years, let's say from when you began?

Yes. Yes, this is a good point, because, well, at the moment that you start that you start the startup, the team is completely on the on the research center. So, you are no one. You You start by being zero. And then you start you start to grow. At this moment, we are 10 at the company.

But the So, we had two or three researchers, three researchers, that came that moved from the center to the company, doing, well, now with with a different mindset, as a start, to develop the the product and to do R&D, but always thinking about the product, right?

So, at BSC, we have a team in which the Still we have a team at BSC. But this this team at the at the center is more on R&D, on research and development. And the the part of the team that that sits in the company is like translating the or transforming this into a product. So, if you take if you take the joint team, the team at both at the our our team at both at the BSC and at the company, can be kind of 30 people, something like that.

I see. Already quite big if you, yeah.

Yes. It's a The The startup is small. Well, we are 10, it's not as small, but the startup is small, but the team is larger. So, sometimes, when well, when we show the things that we do, they say, "But how many of you are? Because you are a startup." Yes, but the fact is that we've been doing this for so long, and and the team, in fact, is um it's uh we work uh together in in conjunction with the team at BSC.

Mariano, as a co-founder and a successful CTO, what technology challenges were you faced with when you started at ELEM Biotech, or did everything go as planned and it was a magical journey?

No. The truth the truth is that no.

I like that, yeah.

Yes. Eh. Well, the the there were some technology challenges that were already there, so I won't this are, well, they they are there. Everything that is It is like when you when you develop something, you have your path, and you do things, and there are some things are okay, some things are not, but, you know, it's a path.

At the moment that you create your company, there are many things that change. And that that day, you start to transform R&D into a product. And to me, from my as I am a researcher by training, to me, that was the most, with all the things that come together with it, that was kind of the most and is the most difficult thing of of of doing of doing things, is to to this technology transfer, because the because you have to completely change your mindset. Now, you start thinking about users, for instance, which is I mean, from the real real world, is, well, but that's obvious. Yes, but not for a researcher. It's not that obvious. The user are you, so you don't need to Of course, the our team in our team in BSC, the the whole team that produce the that works around the code, because this code is is not just used for biomedical, it is used for other in other domains, so the full team in BSC is 50 people. So, you need to do something that it is well-documented and, well, that's that fine, but they are developers, they're not users.

So, at the moment that you say, "I will transform this in a product," you start having users, not developers. And that was all the technology that goes around this, the backend, the frontend, the robustness of the code, versioning, that was really the real real a really real challenge, yeah.

If I can follow up on that, what was the most valuable lesson that you learned during this time?

I think that it was it was the how far away is a researcher from from business. You when you start, because when we started, I we share the duties with a friend of mine, which is the CEO. So, we started we co-founded the the company at the same time with with another another co-founders. One of the co-founders is another researcher like me, so we work together at the at the center. And another one, it is the CEO now. So, he has a very strong business background. And without him, without his background, I would never do, not at all, what what we are doing now.

Because the it is very it is very difficult. I mean, that the business training is you you can think that you're smart, and you are not at all smart, you are a complete dumb. So, it in indeed, for for business, it's a it's a whole different arena. So, the main lesson is not that I learned business, is that I learned that I does not know business. And and I learned that I must work with someone that really knows uh knows it. And, well, it's it's what we are doing now.

Yeah, it's like teamwork makes the dream work, and two heads are better than one when you can collaborate and bounce ideas off each other.

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. And this being researcher and being business person most of the time is not compatible. So, it's difficult to it's difficult Well, we we we we are we get along very well, and and we are we are very good friends, but we discuss a lot, because it's, you know, sometimes the the visions are divergent. And you need to be humble enough to say, "No, this is not No, no, he's right, he's right. I have to And and you have to say, "Okay, hands down. I will not I will not not even make an opinion on that. I have no I cannot I cannot tell, so you you you decide." Yeah.

Compromising is very

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, you guys started out in 2018 in terms of the product, so, and then, you know, early in 2020, we got hit by COVID-19. Pandemic comes in. So, how how did COVID-19 impact your business and and how have you adjusted to it?

Yes. Well, the let let's say from two points of view. The operational point of view, we started, well, as as you, as almost everyone, we had to learn to work from from home and being productive, and being in and and and have a productive teamwork from everyone from home. So, that was something that had to be learned.

I have to say that in our case that was good, the experience was good. And now I think that we are prepared to hear to have something that it is hybrid, more days working from home, and and also working from the office when you need it. And I my bet is that we are going we we need to do it well, of course, but I think that it will be it will be very good for for all of us.

This is from the operational point of view. And then from the business side, well, investors and customers suffered an initial retraction when the COVID-19 started. It was kind of a fear about the future for everyone, customers and investors. I mean, and customers and investors are those that will fuel company with money. So, it was kind of, well, we we those days we were we were okay with the with the we had no cash problems with the size of the company. So, we decided, okay, let us keep on working and developing things and we will come back once the we hope that this we at those days we hoped that this retraction will disappear. And yes, it disappeared in the it disappeared and now things are getting much, much better. But I think that this were the two main the two main issues of COVID.

Yeah. I mean, nobody knew how to deal with this thing, so everyone is just learning. And I think the how companies have adjusted, or the ones that have adjusted are are the ones that are looking into the future. So, and and there I mean, we know several businesses that just couldn't sustain being without customers or without investments. So, yeah, they have suffered. I think older businesses suffered more than the newer startups. This is something that we've seen on the trend. Startups tend to be more agile and more used to being in funny situations, let's say.

No. Yes, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

So, Mariano, what goals do you have for the company let's say in the next 5 years? How far do you see this technology evolving?

We have sort of a a vision, which is really to we think that we that we, not just us, but we are living a a revolution in medicine and we would like to drive it, the data explosion, and and how you use it this data. There is a traditional way of using the data. You know, it is like I was talking with a a very a very smart person that works in a in one of our customers, which is a very, very large medical devices company, and he said that there is an analogy between between a and a for a large medical device company like this one with machine learning and artificial intelligence, and it is like a like an oil company.

In an oil company, the the artificial intelligence is like dealing with oil. So, oil is data, and oil is there, so you can be smart enough to get this this oil and to and to refine it and, but the oil is there, it will be always there. It is It can be deeper, can be in the sea, it can be offshore, inshore, but it is there. But modeling and simulation, the kind of things that we do, is an alternative energy. So, it is something that it it goes Oil is going to be, well, not not oil, but let us let us think that oil oil is going to be always there. So, the the kind of things that we do, if you take the kind of things that we do and you combine with oil, with the data, then you can really have this this revolution.

So, my my goal is to drive this this revolution. And having born in a We are not smarter than others, but the fact is that we've been born in a supercomputing center puts us in some puts us in a in a very good position for doing that for doing this, because we are not afraid, as we have, as I said before, look, as as we have the efficiency at this fourth pillar, we are not at all afraid of the complexity of the problem, because we can we can do something in a supercomputer and we can solve it in time, in in a reasonable amount of time.

So, that's why I think that, well, that will be great, being born in a in a chapel.

Yeah, yeah. Having something built in already available, yeah.

Yes.

I see. So, that that that gives you a head start ahead of the other competition or players in the market.

Yes, exactly. So, we'll see, we'll see.

Okay. Okay. But, yeah, it's it's great. So, you're completely So, this is no simple, you know, startup. It's It's either big things or, you know, we keep trying until we get there.

Yes.

I see. That's a that's very visionary. And, you know, the world is it we we solve problems because of people who think like this. Otherwise, you know, there's a lot of average people like me in the world, I think. That's how what someone said. Okay, great. Right. Okay, Xenia, carry on.

Awesome. Okay, now we're ready for our personal portion of the podcast. So, we have some personal questions for you. Could you describe your typical day for us, because it seems like you're managing your time really well, and you get a lot of things done. So, what's your secret?

Bueno. Well, I don't I would like to manage my time better, I have to say. But yes, well, more or less, well, you at this time we are At this moment, we are moving from complete confinement to some hybrid confinement, let's say. So, some days, I'm going to go to the office and some days, I'm I'm I I will remain at home, but it won't it will not be different, except for the commuting time. So, I typically I don't I am not a I'm I'm not very good in the mornings, so I do I do not wake up very extremely early, so it is kind of at 8:00, 8:30.

So, after breakfast, shower, whatever, I I if I go to the office, I commute. As I said, I have a Brompton bicycle, so I I go cycling to to work. And, well, it's a relatively traditional, and and I I work until I don't know, kind of 7:30 or 8:00, and and come back home and drink a wine with my wife, and yes, and go to to a restaurant or or something.

I have plenty of meetings, I have to say, and this is something that I is the thing that I don't like it that much from this pandemia time, because the meetings just blown, and I would like to have less meetings, but I have plenty of them. So, some There are some weeks that I would I I love to I love to program, so I would like to have more time to program and to do things. But in any case, there are many meetings that are with with a researcher or developers or engineers colleagues. So, this these meetings are great, are much much better than other kind of meetings. So, yes, more or less this is the more or less the day.

I guess you I guess you're talking about business meetings. They're You just discuss things, yeah.

Yeah. Yes, discuss things. I mean, don't get me wrong, they're okay.

They're important, they're important, but you know, sometimes they can be over, you know, a bit over, bit bit of an overkill, so I I Absolutely, absolutely. They are important and you always think, "Oh, it should be shorter."

Mm.

Absolutely. I agree. What do you think is one thing you wish you had known before you began your career as a CTO?

It is related to what I what I said before, is the knowledge of of business. That was uh But in in any case, it was okay. When I was doing my my PhD, which was a technical one, at some point, I thought about doing a master an MBA, so this would be Now, if you if you look in perspective, it would have been interesting just to know beforehand before entering into it.

The commercial commercial side of the startup, I see.

Yes, yes. So, I think that that could be maybe not an MBA, maybe not that large, not not spending 2 years doing an MBA, or 1 year, well, because while while you are during during the time you're doing your PhD, you are fully devoted to the PhD. But at least to have some more, well, some more knowledge on on the business side, maybe this, yes.

Very interesting. You know, there's an interesting point that comes to my mind here. So, Xenia, you remember that we we interviewed somebody called Luke, he's based off Canada, and he told us, we asked him the same question, so and he said like, "I can't go 10 years back, because he's very he's like 20 something." And and they they raised some money for their startup, and he said like one thing that he wouldn't change is being naive when he started out, because he said if he had known all the legal and the Yes, that's stuff, he would not have started the business. So, he said not knowing it helped us. So

Yes, yes, absolutely. I think that Yes, yes. That's why I think that some maybe some some notions of of business, but not that not that much. Yes, yes, I I concur. It's a Yes, yes, absolutely.

It's a it's a messy area to to go into.

Yeah. Yes.

You are where you are because of the past. If you change it, maybe you will be somewhere else, so you know. Yes, yes. And in fact, yes. And in fact, developing this technology required a lot of plenty of effort. So, if you if you do a different thing, then you don't have time to to develop this technology, and to Go as deep as you as you have been in in this field, so, yeah.

Yes, yes.

Mariano, how do you stay on top of the latest business and technology innovation trends? Do you follow any sort of maybe website or news, magazines? How do you stay on top of the latest trends?

Yes. Well, what I some blog that I like it a lot is Medium since about I don't know, maybe 1 year or something, I like it a lot. But mostly talking to colleagues, attending to conferences. Well, now you cannot, but attending to conferences, but also talking to my colleagues within my my team, just interchanging information. I also read sometimes Wired magazine, but I think that Medium is Medium is is fine. Is a good is a is a good way of having this information, of of of knowing things.

I like Medium as well. I think I like that it tells you how long it will take for you to finish an article and then you are like planned. Ah, yes, that's great. And you know it's like 4 minutes, okay, it's on the phone, let's read.

Now, I will read it. If it is 7:00, no, I won't. Okay, great.

All right, everyone. Now, we've come to the final part of our podcast. This is where our questions can get a little tricky. Mariano, what continues to be your biggest challenge from a tech perspective? How do you wish technology would evolve to make your business more efficient? And what advice would you give to someone who's just starting out?

Well, yes, the the biggest challenge from the tech perspective is develop an even larger and more more comprehensive model of the human being. So, we are working now at the cardiovascular, but we're working at the same time in the well, we're we're doing things at respiratory, so the the cardiovascular is increasing to the is moving to the vascular one. So, at some point, we are we can be at the point of linking both together, respiratory with cardiovascular. For that, you need to to run as efficiently as possible in a large computer.

Computers are there and they are growing, so we have availability. We will have an an always growing computer, larger, more powerful. So, if you make your your model efficient, then, as I as as we've been talking before, you don't you are not afraid of doing larger and more comprehensive things.

But then, and this is linked to the second question, how to do this to to evolve to make the business more efficient, well, we are involved in some activities which are called co-design. So, this co-design is to discuss with hardware manufacturers from the developer point of view what are the new computers or the new hardware architecture, what would be useful for us, not just wait for them to to bring to the market a new GPU, but saying, "Look, why not doing a GPU, but with these features in it?" Or, "Why don't you include a programming model that in which that will be more that can be adapted to what we do?"

So, this co-design activities require plenty of, well, you need contacts for doing this, but, well, working at the at the supercomputing center, we have them, money. But it is a it's kind of a it's a long shot. It's something that must be done in in a continuous way. So, these two things together, the doing something more complex and more comprehensive and having the the ability of the of doing this efficiently in the in in the newer architectures.

And you asked me for a an advice. So, just don't give up. Yes. No matter how difficult things are, just don't give up.

Someone has to keep going, you know? Yes. Yeah. So, like like like, you know, I I have a question for you, Mariano, to end this. So, I mean, this is, you know, something that we ask most of the founders, but your yours is a very unique case. So, it's it's a, I mean, what what you're doing is is kind of revolutionary. I'm saying kind of because I don't want to come across as cheesy, I guess. So, it's it's very revolutionary, I think. So, tell us like how do you deal with setbacks mentally? What does it do to you, and how do you overcome, you know, you know, let's say if you're you're a researcher, so not every time you hit gold, so how do you come over the disappointment if the data comes out, you know, bad or something is not findings are different? So, how do you keep on top of everything all the time and keep going?

Well, I think that the good point is that is that I am not alone, is that we are a team and we know each other very well. And the the the most prominent members of these teams, we are all very good friends, and we back each other. And at when when we have these difficulties or or things that are not going well, we just uh it's a continuous discussion on how to foresee these problems and how to avoid them.

Which is something that, from the technical point of view, it is okay. From the business point of view, is something that I, well, I have my my friend and, but but I'm I am much more insecure on this on this arena. But yes, I think that that good teamwork is very good for pushing forward when you have these uh when you when you face problems.

Great. I see. I see. So, support around you is very important, I guess.

Yes, yes. And and, but mutual support. Mutual support, yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, I like that. And if you look back, I mean, when when you look at two friends who work closely or a family, that's how everything runs. That, you know, there's always setbacks in life or otherwise and you just, you know, support each other and and carry forward and, you know, products along the way and services, I guess. Yes, yeah.

So, Mariano, I want to thank you on that note. I think it was very interesting to learn more about biotech today. Fascinating story, how this company was, you know, born out of a cathedral. As a research facility with a supercomputer there, so that's that's something we knew a little bit, but it's great to know it first-hand from you. I really enjoyed it, and I'm sure our audience will enjoy this as well.

Thank you. Thanks a lot, both both of you. It was great. It was not of the one of the bad meetings.

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