Episode 37: Sticking to Our Core

Hey listeners, welcome to SphereCast, a podcast all about technology, technology advice, technology inspiration, and how real entrepreneurs have used technology to build their businesses from the ground up. If you're wondering how technology can support your business goals, rest assured, our guests have been there and done that.

What's at your core? What drives you? When you wake up every morning, what gets you out of bed? Does this dominate your focus throughout your day, or do you get distracted?

A fulfilling life is one that's lived with purpose, and in the business world, successful businesses are often the ones that get laser-focused on that one singular objective. Our guest this week is at the helm of such a business, one that sacrifices short-term temporary profit for long-term permanent impact. It's Luc here with SphereCast, and this week Xenia and I speak with Gandolf Finke, founder and MD at Mika.

Mika is a digital companion platform that walks with cancer patients through every step of their difficult journey through sickness. The app offers up personalized, evidence-based content, including digital interventions and trusted education. Prior to his work at Mika, Finke spent time as a consultant with a large global firm, primarily focusing on healthcare organizations. Cancer is no stranger to Gandolf. Several instances of cancer that personally impacted him ultimately drove him towards creating a solution like Mika.

Easing others' difficulties with this horrible disease is at the core of Mika's mission, and Finke is dedicated to maintaining focus on this objective. In fact, in a world where the norm for digital apps is to sell personal data, Mika has drawn a line in the sand and has chosen to forego short-term monetary gains for the good of its users. On the podcast, hear the full inspirational story and pick up some solid entrepreneurial advice along the way. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Gandolf.

Hi, everyone. Xenia's here, and our guest today is Gandolf from Mika. Hi, Gandolf, how are you?

Hi, very good. How are you?

Doing well. Happy Friday. Let's begin with an icebreaker. Could you share with our audience something interesting about yourself that people don't know?

Tough one. You're putting me on the spot here. I once sang in a gospel choir when I was back at MIT. That was great fun. A lot of great memories I have from back then, and it's something people don't typically expect when they see me and meet me.

Were you a regular, or did you take part a few times?

I was only there for a year, so over that year I was there, but not for longer, for sure. But I had been singing before that in many choirs, actually. Unfortunately, I didn't keep that up. I should go back into that. That was a lot of fun.

Great! And just curious to know a little bit more about MIT, so what were you doing there? Any particular, you know, education program you took up there and how was the experience?

Yeah, I was a visiting researcher back then. I was there at the In my basically final years of a master's equivalent. I took an engineering degree in Germany, and the last year you sort of write a thesis, et cetera. And I extended that a little bit and went over to MIT to basically work on some research. That was more in operations management, actually, back then. Great time. Had a lot of fun. Met really impressive, amazing people, and that was great.

Amazing, amazing. That's a that's a very interesting piece of information, so thanks for sharing that with us. So I'm going to start with your most recent venture today. So in your own words, what is Mika and why did you start this particular product? Or if we can call it product, because we know that it exists under the Fosanis umbrella. So yeah, if you could talk to it a little bit more.

Yes, of course. So what we do with Mika is supporting cancer patients going through therapy and disease, essentially. So this means it's a digital companion platform that allows patients to monitor symptoms, but also get guidance and support from from the content and the the personalization that we've implemented in there. It's downloaded as a native app on Android and iOS and helps people clinically validated to improve their wellbeing while on this horrible disease that they're facing and treatment that they're facing.

So that's in a nutshell what we do. There's a personal story behind that, so I had unfortunately a couple of cases of cancer in my personal environment, and I had also been working in the healthcare industry for a little bit. And so these things somehow came together, and at some point, I figured that was something I could start working on, helping these people and patients have a as best as possible journey, if you can call that, through this time in their in their life.

And digital means were, or still are, in the beginning of their implementation or or usage, I think, in in in healthcare, at least on on the patient's side. And so that was something that I saw you could add a lot of value in an in a really underserved market. And that's why we started doing this.

Wow, good to hear that. That's a that's a great cause. Certainly that's been the theme on our podcast as well. We have been speaking with a lot of founders and execs who are in the wellbeing industry. So yeah, we continue with it. We're getting stronger, so today we have Mika. So good to know this little backstory about Mika. I'll pass it over to Xenia for the next part, so thanks for sharing.

I would love to learn more about your product architecture. Could you share with us your thought process in selecting technology solutions for Mika? What choices did you consider and which ones did you settle on?

Yeah, so we settled on digital essentially as a starting point. Where you could you could argue why not do this by telephone, et cetera, but I think it was the the format that we essentially chose because it is scalable, because it allows us to learn and and iterate, et cetera. We actually started off with a web app, so that was a very much more basic than the current environment platform that we that we developed very early on and brought that, I think within three or four months of development, we brought it actually into a clinical study to actually see how patients perceive it, like it, and learn from that, and then iterate accordingly. Right? So we learned a lot of things from from these very early days and then were able to sort of improve on the web app experience first, but then also developed native apps at some point because we figured you want to be basically a a permanent companion in the hands of these patients.

And so in order to actually be there physically, be there basically, we thought that the native apps would be the right experience to to to consume and use Mika.

So you went native to begin with, absolutely. There was this slight thought in mind that you could do hybrid and then go native after you have proof, you know, after you have a proof of concept and you've tested with the customer. So did that ever come to your mind? I'm sure it did, like, and what were the driving factors to just go purely native here for iOS and Android both? Experience or some something else as well?

Yeah, so I mean, we we heard from patients that they wanted this to be, you know, in a native app, essentially. We got this feedback quite a few times from patients who said, "You know, this is all great, but I don't just want to sit at my laptop and do all these things in a in a browser. I want to be able to do this like in a native experience. And I want to be reminded, and I want to, you know, have more native functionalities that you can only really build into a native app." And so this is this is feedback that we that we heard and essentially acted upon, right? After now of course we have to get a little bit of a numbers behind that, so you don't act upon every piece of feedback. But it was a consistent theme.

And it also allows us for some different distribution channels, of course, right? I mean, we could do App Store marketing and so on, and that that allows us of course to to reach patients also in a different format.

Okay. That that's very interesting. So I work with founders and CTOs in this area. Quite often when the entrepreneurs are approaching us, they are going with the hybrid approach, and you have gone the other way. So quite often the the niggling, you know, issue there is off the funding. So I believe you guys had secured enough funding before you went on to make this technology decision. Because if the funding was one of the major factors, then your choices, you know, choices would have been limited in a way that you would go hybrid first and try something out before you are able to raise more funds and go with the native apps.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, of course this sort of an a natural journey that you go through and you you test something, you validate your ideas. We did that with a web app in the browser and saw that there was a lot of positive feedback about what we're doing, but then also ideas for improvement. And then we secured more funding to then be able to develop native apps and and and push those basically out into the market. And I think that that's fairly natural way of doing things that. I'm not There's a scenario in the future where we also have, again, a hybrid model where we say, look, you can also do these things in a browser. I don't I'm not sure if we'll we'll ever go there, but for now it's not the way that we're doing it.

When you first started Mika, did everything go as planned, or could you share with us some of the business and technology challenges that you were faced with?

Everything went as planned. It's a very unusual story. No, of course of course we we faced a lot of challenges. I mean, this starts anyway. So we started off, two guys who had this idea and want to drive things. We started off in in Frankfurt, actually, then fairly quickly noticed it's really hard to hire people in Frankfurt at that time. This might have changed a little bit, but so in Germany, Frankfurt, Germany. And then moved to Berlin. Finding your environment there, et cetera, was was a a learning. Getting people with real understanding of psycho-oncology, so which is the the science of psychology for cancer patients, oncology.

There we were pretty lucky to fairly quickly find one of the leading experts in the field who was very supportive and still is, Professor Mehnert-Theuerkauf from the University of Leipzig, who has really been, you know, tremendously supportive of us over the years. But then of course, you know, not everything goes to plan on funding. You know, we had business angels and family and friends as you have initially, and then, you know, you you make your way through things. But then you notice, you know, maybe it's not going as well as you think it is or you anticipated it would be.

But then, you know, I think being an entrepreneur is also about facing these challenges and and and somehow dealing with all these things, right? And there were tough times, and then there were easy times, and you have to have you know, celebrate the highs and, somehow, manage to go through the lows.

Do you wish now there was something you had known when you started, like some hindsight at this point in time in your journey?

Yeah. Yeah, I think a few sort of singular points. Of course, you grow in how you do these things, and you you develop a perspective of what's good, bad, right, wrong, et cetera, and there's no objectivity in in much of this, but I think one thing that I would have liked is to have a a better expectation and also preparation of HR as a thing or as a as a subject.

I think, you know, dealing with many different people, their beliefs, concerns, needs, et cetera, is something that doesn't come naturally to anyone, right? So it's something you need to learn, you need to grow in this. And I think that's why I could have probably anticipated that and and also reserved more time for that in a way. I think we're, you know, constantly developing that and doing more and more of these things and professionalizing also.

And much of this is also natural in the early days of a startup, right? That you know, it's not the biggest problem you're trying to solve with the very initial team. But you have to professionalize in these in this in every way, right? And so that's something that I where I I think I would have liked to expect that this was a bigger thing that than I did. I mean, I came out of consulting. Maybe that's also reason for that because, you know, where I worked before before I founded, there were just basically only super talented and crazily motivated people. And this is, you know, a slightly different world from reality where I'm where I'm working now.

I see. I see. Interesting. I mean, I came across an organization today. They are growing very fast. Series C they have done already, Series C funding round. And still no HR, you know. They're up to 200 people without human resourcing team. So they're doing well, but I can see there is a cultural challenge, or we as humans are sometimes managing few different things. And there This this is an area, I think, slightly undervalued in in the newer new age organizations, perhaps, too overvalued in the old big organizations or corporations. And I think now we are realizing that there needs to be some balance and some proportion of the HR element in in every organization.

Yeah, I'm I'm not sure if it's undervalued in the new organizations, because I think there's actually a lot of emphasis on it and and also I think people's needs have evolved. And they're not necessarily fewer. Right? Whatever the time frame is. But I think it's it's also a matter of defining what it actually means, right? What what do you have to do to lead a company, or or to lead in an organization? What does the organization have to provide for people? What's what's the role in their lives? And I think people look look at their employer differently now than they would have 30 years ago or 50 years ago or whatever. It's not no longer a, you know, "I'm going to join this company and work there for the rest of my life."

It's much more, you know, "I want to work with in an environment where or on things that are purposeful. I want to the the means and and the time to also pursue things outside work," et cetera. I think the demands in recent generations have definitely not decreased. And so you have to also invent your your model of of how you operate the company accordingly, right? Doesn't mean you have to, you know, do everything that people want necessarily or they they that they ask you for. But I think if you want to attract the best talent and and retain them, you need to be able to somehow adapt to changing needs in a in a generational sense.

COVID-19 has impacted lots of businesses in the last year or so. How did you adjust to the unprecedented situation?

I think there's a couple of things that come to mind. And, on one hand, it's sort of like, you know, how do you run your organization? How do you also give certainty to people going through this? And I think we were fairly quick to react and send everyone into home office and, you know, also trying to find new tools and, yeah, ways of working that cater to a fully remote culture. Right? I think that that's also hard and I'm 100% sure we didn't nail it, but, you know, tried to adapt to whatever's possible at this point, right? And and also make sure that, you know, people who have trouble with family situations at home that have to take care of kids, etcetera, you know, enabling them to, you know, somehow still work while doing that or somehow be in a flexible time schedule. So all these things, you know, took a lot of effort to to set up and run, and and for the whole organization to adapt to.

But I think it's you know, we have a few cancer patients in the team also, who are a particular higher-risk group. And so, we were It was never a question for us if we if we, you know, try to push to get everyone to the office as long as possible, but, you know, rather be on the cautious and early-reacting side. So that that's one side of of the equation. And then now it's the big question of where do we actually go back to that almost every company is facing. What what's the what's the future working model? And I think we'll probably land on a on a hybrid model where we'd say, you know, we we do value face time for some part of our working time, but then it's also established and working well to work from home, so or to do remote work, wherever that is.

So I think we will we will we will transfer to a to a hybrid model soon. It's already somehow developing because it's always allowed people to go to the office with some distancing, et cetera, measures. But there's more and more that happening, and people want it. Right? So they also want to engage with their colleagues and and and have at least some face time. Not necessarily 100%, but that's why the hybrid model comes from.

And then also from a business perspective, this was hard because, you know, funding rounds were not easier in that time, at least in the initial phase. I think we're very, very lucky that we're actually in a in an industry that is, in the mid- to long-term, benefiting from this tremendously, right? And I think there was a strong push towards digital healthcare solutions overall. You know, we're not we're not the telemedicine provider with physicians on the video, so we're not that perfect sweet spot, basically. But I think the whole industry of digital health overall experienced an uplift because of that. I think pharmaceutical companies, physicians, you know, everyone in healthcare are overall looking at how can we adapt to a a new model that potentially leverages technology in a better way.

And so we're benefiting from that, I would I would say, in the mid- to long-term. But in the short term, of course, that didn't make things necessarily easier.

Definitely. There's been a mind, you know, mind shift, I think, in terms of how people have taken to the digital world. A lot of the folks who would not even go close to the phone, who found, you know, things more convenient personally, I think they are more They've been pushed, I think, towards it. And and I think there's opportunities to be seized in the market. And I think these things have a good impact on the environment, too, as a result, that there's less people moving, less movement, and people not just traveling in their cars to offices, etcetera. So I see a lot of benefit. I think that's kind of the positive side of COVID, and clearly, hybrid model.

I want to ask you something else. So this is something we ask most founders that we speak with. So I'd love to understand, for Mika, what were the most difficult decisions in terms of, you know, developing the product? Was there anything particular that you would highlight, and you could share with our audience? Maybe it will help them, you know, with that particular decision if they are, you know, at the at the crossroads, or if the question is in front of them, perhaps? Some business area you want to talk about, some technology area, something like that.

So without having given this hours of thought, but but just what comes to my mind right now, I think one really important aspect for us was to, and still is, I think, to stick to the core. I it sounds super cheesy, but I think it's very true in in our particular case where And I think this is true for probably any business. But from the outside, things look pretty focused, right? You'd say, you know, it's just for cancer patient and and patients. And it's a it's a digital platform. So, you know, what what are possibly the the the the variabilities in there?

But I think once you're in it as we are, you know, you face a lot of choices of which direction you want to go. And I think in the digital healthcare industry, it's very easy to get sort of pulled into, "Why don't you just create this great tool that collects all the data from patients and then monetizes on that and sends it to pharma companies?" Right? So, I think there are a lot of players like that out there. And it's you know, fair enough. I'm not judging that. I think it's a business model, and the world is probably a better place if, you know, this data helps in developing better medicines, etcetera. So totally fine with me, right? But I think for us to take a conscious decision against some of the demands that we sort of felt coming up, and I think one thing that we really believe at the core is that we want to empower the people who are using Mika.

And this really means we don't want them to just enter data and that's it, right? And I think we're very careful around how we essentially want them to spend their time in the app. And and when they ask us for something when we ask them for data points, that we actually give something back, and that this data is only used to make sure that it essentially benefits the patient at the end of the day. So what we what we do is we personalize a lot of the content according to the current situation and profile of the patient. So therefore, it's somehow important for us to get some data, but we don't need to know everything about the patient, right? And so this again, however, is, you know, makes us somewhat less interesting to some other partners to work with. But I think this is a conscious decision to make sure that you strictly stick really to the core of what you're doing, which is empowering patients affected by cancer, empowering people affected by cancer, actually, and not get sort of sidetracked into, yeah, you know, following this this incentive essentially to do something a little bit different which then, I think, takes also a lot of the power and the purpose of what you what you do.

So I think this was a decision that we once very intensely discussed internally, and I think it will come up, you know, every whatever

Most investors will question it. Yes. I...

Yeah, I'm I'm not sure if Not sure about that. If you tell the right story around it, and if you get people to believe that that's actually the right way of doing it, right? I mean, we're not saying we're building a business because we don't want to make money, but the money is at the end of things, right? If you create a lot of value for people in an industry where there's anyways a lot of money, this is also a business. Right? And I think we are actually this naive to start the business initially. We said, "Look, this is a huge problem that patients are facing.

We have no idea who's going to pay us for this. This is not an e-commerce platform where we say, you know, we buy this nail for two cents and we sell it for 10 cents, and it's very easy to scale. Now you have to just control your marketing budget. But it's a and this I'm not saying e-commerce is that easy, but, you know, get the point. It was very much we build something and we find a business model when we're sure that we're creating value here, right? It's a you could call it visionary, you could call it naive, but I think a different approach to entrepreneurship than than than a few other people take. And I think then you, of course, rely very much on the story that you can tell.

Because if you don't if you then don't have a great story that this is actually valuable and it's actually helping, then you don't find people who give you money, because you cannot show that it generates money as of now, and you don't have the business model behind it. And then, of course, over time, because we're also in Europe, we had to develop business models sooner than we probably would have liked to, right? And and look at how can we partner with industry, how can we get into reimbursement models? And then we were, you know, at the right time, in the right industry, that there's actually a a reimbursement scheme in Germany now, a law that's only a couple of years old now that we're now benefiting from where we basically can get reimbursement for for our app.

Amazing. So stick to the purpose that you started with, values. And yeah, I I I think it's a it must have been challenging, that decision. But, you know, there there is great value in this. And I think you should stick to your guns here, and absolutely. I I I like the the bravado here, and I think it's It's so refreshing to hear that from you, because it's easy to get swayed, and it's easy to take something up and forget about what you're doing. And and and then your product could also lose its value over the next few years. I guess, you know, you become something else, your image changes, et cetera, and who knows what happens there. So I I'm just saying, like if I was in your shoes, I could send, you know, see something like that happening.

So yeah, I mean, I think it's a It's not a brave decision, but it's like, you know, you you you're trying to do something and you will stick with it and you you want to accomplish it, so I I think this is something commendable.

Thank you. I always want to make sure I really don't want to come across as sort of the guy who, you know, is the the the great morals teacher. I'm

No, no, no, no, no. But I think it's just a product idea and you you you have an app as a product and you're sticking with it.

Yeah, yeah. But I think it's also totally fine if you if you hear the if you see the signs, you know, to to change your model, right? And to say, "Look, we should probably do something different now." You know, I don't I don't have all the right answers. I'm just saying how we did it and what was hard for us and what still is hard for us in in in many ways. And and at the same time, I'm fully acknowledging that sometimes, you know, changing your ways of doing is the right way to do things, right? And and not sticking to everything the way that you've done it and perceived it before, so that I guess is also important to to bring across.

I'm going to shift gears here and ask you some personal questions. Could you share with us your typical day, if there is such a thing, right? What does it consist of? Do you have a routine? How do you relax?

This is a great question. I think it's hard to answer, actually, for me. The reason being, a, there's a world with pre-corona and one during corona, and that was very different for me, right? Before corona, I lived primarily in Berlin, and now, during corona, my son was born, and things changed obviously because of that. And then also I live in Zurich, so that has changed. And my whole work day is basically consisting of many Zoom meetings and time on my own, and time on the phone. Right? So it's very different from what it was before, because I I actually enjoy very much working directly with people and being in a, yeah, in a social environment where that's that has changed a little bit.

So for me, this is and I also noticed for myself this is not great, right? The way that's working right now. What I what I do is I I run. I try to do that sort of three, four times a week. I spend time with my family, of course, which which is great. Block some family time everyday when when the little one comes home and and my wife's home and and we we have family hours. And then usually I go go back to work sort of after that in the in the later stages of the evening. But that, of course, depends a little bit. And then, you know, I'm a fairly social animal, so I I like to meet friends and and do those things. That's probably boring to talk about, but for me, gives me a lot of energy and and and purpose in in my life.

How do you stay on top of the latest technology innovations? Do you have a maybe a favorite podcast or a magazine that you look through weekly, daily?

I have a a couple newsletters. I'm I'm pretty focused on the on the medical, digital health, biotech sort of world. But also a couple of, you know, early-stage company newsletters and news outlets that that I follow. I think that's probably the majority. In a few very amazing Slack groups that I somehow got invited to, which is super interesting to to learn from others, primarily from other entrepreneurs. And I think that's sort of the majority. And then I read a couple of newspapers. But of course, I mean, much of this is skimming through things, right? Unfortunately don't have time to read a lot of in spend a lot of time in-depth reading of lengthy articles. Would like to spend more time.

I also, here and then, I I read in books or I listen to to podcasts or or to audiobooks while I run. That's but that's hopefully Usually, it's not medically related, sort of a little bit more broader scope.

What was the last book that you listened to?

The biography of Walt Disney. I'm still in it because it's super crazy long. It's like I don't know, 36 hours. There's a shorter and a longer version. But it's it's a really great story of of how this guy actually changed the world, you could really say. He changed the world. And yeah, I can can recommend reading up on that. It's a great story to to, you know, not too sure I agree with him all the choices, and I'm not sure he's a necessarily a a likeable character in in the way that he built all of that. But I think it's definitely impressive and, you know, we're we're still experiencing a lot of what he's created.

Well, I think we've come to the final part of our podcast. This is where questions can get tricky, so I hope you're ready for this. What continues to be your biggest challenge from a tech perspective? And the second part of this question would be how do you wish technology would evolve to make your business more efficient?

Tough one. To the first part, I think hiring is is absolutely key in in all roles and levels and, yeah, I think that that's absolutely really, really something where it's a it's a challenge to find the right people and to make sure that they are fully motivated, et cetera. I think we we attract a lot of people because it's very purposeful what we do, but then, you know, making the right choices is is hard. And I think there's a lot a lot more that we can and have to do from our perspective to to to improve on our process. And there is also more technology than what we already use, so I think that there's definitely that.

But, again, it's a matter of allocating time and priorities to it, and and I think that's something where we'll definitely shift more into going forward. From a tech perspective else, I'm not sure if there's actually that much. I mean, I think my journey and the company of our journey very much consists of, you know, constantly questioning and iterating around what we're doing. Are we doing the right thing? Is it really working the way that we want it to do? What are the proof points? Because it's not that easy, right? Because it's not a online store where we sell things and we can very easily see you know, today this many people bought something. We can see how many people logged on, how many new people we found, etcetera, but do they really like it? Why did they use it? What's the benefit that they really get out of it, etcetera. I think that that's where it gets tricky, right?

And and some of these questions we can really only answer in clinical studies. That would that's why we do so many so much work on the clinical side and have validated Mika, you know, as a medical product, and and continue to run clinical studies to really understand how people benefit from from what we do and what we could do better from the perspective. So, yeah, I think that's definitely hard on the product side from from our perspective.

And yeah, I think the HR thing is definitely absolutely key, and it's probably something where where everyone can easily agree that this is the biggest challenge and and the the most Maybe it's not the biggest challenge for everyone, but it's definitely the most important aspect, right? To get the right people on board. And also, we have amazing people. It shouldn't sound like I'm constantly trying to find better people than We have we have really, really amazing people. I'm so proud of of the team and and also developments we've had over the last year and years. I think we're we've matured so much, and and capabilities that have, you know, didn't dream of having in the team when we started. So really happy of how this has developed, but it's not a thing that is ever done, right? It's a constant thing that you have to work on.

I completely agree. Having the right team around you will get you farther than, you know, having a terrible team or maybe no one around you. And Luc and I actually are quite involved in the hiring process for Sphere, and so, you know, hiring can be really time-consuming. Do you have any advice on how to hire the right personnel for your team?

Yeah, I think, you know, there's a lot of literature on this, and I'm not smarter than the literature. I can only repeat what what what what I find it's important for us. I think really having a very clear understanding of what you actually need as a first step, writing it down, and then be very, very strict in grading people and talent against that. I think we've had a few situations in the past where we've really liked people and their profile and and sort of hired them a little bit differently from the job description or the the the profile that we actually needed, which which we can turn can turn out really amazingly, but it's a risk that you're getting yourself into.

And it's a even a bigger risk if you have very small organization. I mean, we're not a large company, and we don't have hundreds of people in in a company, so these decisions have a have an even bigger impact at the stage where we are currently. So, or we have have been in the past. So, yeah, I think think this is this is super, super important. And then I think having a structured process of how you select people to, you know, give some certainty and guidance and structure to the candidates who who are applying, but also to the team internally, and and, yeah, follow that process through. I think that makes life a lot easier than than reinventing the wheel every time that you're doing it.

Absolutely. Gandolf, I couldn't agree more. And on that note, I think we are ready to wrap up. I truly want to thank you for your time. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. We wish you the best of luck, and Luc and I will keep following your success and stay in touch.

Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun speaking to you, and all the best to you and all the people listening. Reach out if you want to speak to me. I'm very open to discussing anything that you're interested in. And great to be on this podcast. Thanks so much for having me.

A special thanks to our podcast guest this week, and once again to our sponsor, Sphere Partners, for bringing this episode to life. If you enjoyed this episode, drop SphereCast a five-star review on iTunes, and share this content with your network. For any relevant links or notes from this episode, check out our podcast website at www.sphereinc.com/spherecast. And, always remember, when you think you can't, technology can. See you next time.